What happens when you spend decades suing the government, and then help run the government? Back in the 1980s, Lucas Guttentag started the Immigrant Rights Project at the ACLU. He and his team argued hugely consequential cases across the country and all the way to the Supreme Court, securing fundamental due process and nondiscrimination rights for the most vulnerable immigrant communities.

Then, during the Obama and Biden eras, Lucas went to work for his longtime courtroom opponents: the Department of Homeland Security and the Department of Justice. We’ll explore the games lawyers play, what it’s like to pursue change from inside a giant bureaucracy, how the courts became a potent weapon for anti-immigrant forces – and, in the end, how to win.

In This Episode

  1. Introduction
  2. Who is Lucas Guttentag?
  3. The ABC case that changed asylum
  4. Truth and lies about marriage fraud
  5. The St. Cyr case that affirmed habeas rights for detainees
  6. How does one go from fighting the government to being part of the government?
  7. DHS vs. DOJ rivalries
  8. Games that DOJ lawyers play
  9. How does the DOJ bureaucracy work?
  10. Who decides what’s legal?
  11. The tragedy of DAPA (Deferred Action for Parents of Americans)
  12. How has immigration law evolved in the courts?
  13. The real scandal is the abuses that are legal
  14. Do you feel optimistic?